One thing that has made me nuts regarding transing of children is that there are laws that have been on the books since at least the 1990s making it illegal for medical treatments that permanently disable sex organs of minors, with the exception of treatments to save the child's life (e.g., removing a cancerous organ). This came up because of cases of children who were severely disabled, the most famous was a Seattle girl known as "Pillow Angel." She couldn't talk, walk, feed herself, play or do much other than wake and sleep. Her parents wanted to keep her as much a part of family life as they could, and would bring her on all family outings.
They petitioned a court for permission to remove her breast buds, uterus and ovaries to minimize her adult height and to prevent her ever having periods. They felt keeping her small and not a fully mature female would be easier for her care givers and for her. As far as I recall, they weren't allowed to do the procedures.
It looks like it was (is?) called the 'Ashley Treatment' and the parents WERE allowed to do it according to Wikipedia (not a great source but has links!). There seem to be a few cases. There is a reference to the UK that a similar case here would probably have gone to court and a decision made in the best interests of the child whereas this seems to have been largely in the interests of the care givers? In the UK we have had several high profile cases about best interest child medical treatments verses care givers opposition that have been decided in court (mainly I think to do with parents wanting continuing medical treatments that will not work like life support when the child will not survive?). I think that is because here children are considered to be legally individuals separate from their parents not 'owned' by their parents as it appears in some countries (parents here legally have parental responsibility to, not rights over their children although some parents don't seem to realise that!) and the best interests of the child are separate from the best interests of the care givers? Although this seems to have been taken to extremes in Georgia (?) where there is the current case of keeping a brain dead woman on life support because she was in the early stages of pregnancy when she died and letting the foetus die with her is considered abortion? Which is crazy as a foetus is not able to survive outside the mother at that stage!
I don't think it has much to do with 'ownership' of a child but more to do with a Parent's 'guardianship' over their child. A child, who is minor, and in most cases will not have the mental capacity, understanding or experience to make important and complex decisions over their life or fully comprehend the future consequences.
In the UK, our laws give ultimate authority to the family courts to make decisions as to what is in the best interests of the child and where possible seek the views of the child, as well as the Parents and relevant specialist agencies in order to come to a final decision on the matter at hand.
I was thinking more about how some parents act over their children not really the legal interpretation. Some of them seem to view them as extensions of themselves rather than separate albeit immature and vulnerable young people. Although people like that also seem to think they can be friends with their young child instead of being the adult having to make unpopular but correct decisions for their child sometimes.
Hmmm, do you know the specific laws? I just did a very quick search about the case and the main thing I could find is that in WA state it is illegal to sterilize a minor with developmental disabilities, and that that was the main bone of contention in the Ashley case.
Disgusting that there's been a complete lack of political will to enforce this state-based prohibition on the sterilisation of minors with autism and other neurological differences in service of trans ideology.
BTW I have yet to ever meet, or even see, a woman who has a prominent Adam's apple! Even the detransitioned women I've met lack them completely. This "Some women have prominent Adam's apples!" nonsense sounds just like the monumental online hugbox cope that it surely is.
Not sure if I have ever seen a woman with a pronounced Adam's Apple either! Sounds made up!
That said I did encounter a woman yesterday (new receptionist at the dentist office) with the largest hands I have ever seen on a woman. Not just long but thick and heavy, they looked like my dad's hands used to look and he worked construction for 50 years! Made me do a double take but she was definitely a woman.
Height is not determined by your chromosomes! It is a Polygenic trait (subject to the interaction of a number of genes). Some are inherited but it can be from either parent or even grandparents and previous relatives which have lain dormant in the prior generation.
Puberty blocking kids does not stop them growing tall. Take Susy Greene's kid Jacki for instance. Puberty blocked (chemically castrated) at 9 years old, actually castrated and colo-vag installed at 16 years old, but still 5' 11" !
It WILL stop muscular development, negatively effect bone density, stop the vocal cords thickening, prevent genital maturation, so the kid will have zero sexual function. It will also close the growth plates earlier than would otherwise be the case, thus mitigating the height (Left alone Jack would have probably been 6' 4") but if you're going to be tall then you're going to be tall that's it!
Also, it seems to me that most (or all) of the prominent cases of puberty blocked men still have clearly male faces and builds, even if they didn't reach their genetic potential height-wise. Take the case of Grace Hyland, for example.
Poor guy has to really coat himself in stacks of makeup.
I couldn't tell you if Grace Hyland has masculine features or not, I don't think there is a single photo/video of Grace that doesn't have a half dozen filters running on it!
Grace's height is somewhere between 5'9" and 5'10" (Dependant upon which website you believe) Grace's model agency says 5'9" and 132 Lbs (1.75m and 60Kg).
The biggest issue for me is not the way they look. Blocking them early will make most of them look like girls. Leaving aside the health issues like bone density these kids never develop any brain maturity. All well and good when you are a teen or early 20's, But they have to grow up and live in the real world but these kids never seem to. You are not going to be pretty forever, time is a bitch!
They cannot form or maintain a relationship because they are infantile in their thought processes and have no sexual desire and most likely have limited sexual function. Despite what they look like they do not seem to be able to form and maintain romantic relationships. Settled HSTS who transition as young adults (20+) don't seem to have the same issues.
They never move like women though so the illusion only holds for a quick glance in a still photo and even then you get uncanny valley vibes from them when a second look is taken. There has been a repeat of a quiz show on TV here over the last few days and the fat trans identified male contestant is so obvious despite being plastered in make up and wearing the obligatory choker.
Interesting. Putting the topic of trans aside for a moment, human biology and the many differences in males and females and genetics is fascinating. You take it all for granted when you are just living and being.
Well I suppose it is kind of like in past times when male children were turned into castrati to sing isn't it? Or where children were sent to become priests or nuns instead of marrying and having families or even when civilisations like aztecs, incas and iron age Europeans (bog bodies) practiced human sacrifices sometimes of children. They seem to have always been seen as expendable and now they are sacrificed for social media and celebrity popularity (the latter people like Emma Bunton, Melanie Brown and Sade) instead.
Former Spice Girls singer EB is said to have transed one of her sons, the singer Sade's daughter says she is a man but is probably a lesbian (think she has a female partner) and in the last few days EB's former Spice Girls colleague MB AKA Melanie B or Mel B has announced that her daughter by Eddie Murphy is a boy so possibly also a lesbian. So called celebrities jumping on the bandwagon as always. 🙄
He might still have been tall though, he has I think three brothers, it would be interesting (as in idle curiosity) to know how tall they, his father and both grandfathers are/were. I think there is also a measument that can be done when toddlers that can estimate adult height. Would be interesting if that formed part of his baby records.
My daughter is a beautiful and striking 5' 11' and I taught her at a very early age to own it!(during teasing at school era). She didn't need to 'fit in' to anything. I told her there would be a time in the future when people wished they had her beautiful, stylish height, if they didn't already. My words came true! Past school mates compliment her all the time on her height and she loves her height. More so as she works within the fashion industry.
She was and is her own unique person. She has presence when she walks into a room and commands attention just by 'being'. So people never forget her, which has worked very much in her favour.
The key is to drown out the noise, because that's all it is noise, and just live 'your best life' simply being you. Irrespective of whether you do or you don't look masculine or feminine. It doesn't matter. It's actually all irrelevant.
What is relevant is that you enjoy and embrace simply 'being' you and are not affected by the mere perceptions of others about you. That's where the real power lies.
Medical doctors who prescribe puberty enders, hormones, and surgery bear the lion's share of blame. Even people with above average intelligence feel ignorant in a doctor's presence: they are the ones who went to med school, after all, they know way more than we do. And, people give in to the avalanche of, "It's fine, do it, I did and look at me[--don't look TOO hard, but], yeah!" I imagine that at age 13-14-15+, a dysphoria patient is not going to challenge a doctor on common sense issues like, What about scarring? What if I don't heal right? How specifically will evacuating my bladder and my bowels be affected? What if I do decide to have children one day, do fake breasts work for nursing again? (Kids/teens mostly have no understanding of mammary glands, or any bodily function from the inside--that’s what makes them such easy marks.) Can my body gestate a baby after puberty enders have caused my uterus to shrivel up and maybe been removed? (”I thought the baby was in the stomach.”) Can I get a new womb? They’re starting to make them for gay men couples, right? It was on Tik Tok, gay men who had a baby. (I hate for kids to have to be informed about the sickoes out there, like the 100% female ‘transmen’ who gave birth with their always-were-always-will-be-female bodies, having gotten pregnant in an--apparent to everyone else--HETEROSEXUAL relationship, which after one or both parties decides to identify as the opposite sex means they are still in a heterosexual relationship while play-acting in Genders R Us world as two gay men.) (Apologies to all gay men who’ve simultaneously spun on their heels at the very idea, just as women eschew with vomit coming up the idea of a man posing as a lesbian of any kind.) These are not dumb questions for a teenager to ask a doctor, so DO IT, teens, Ask the REAL questions you have in your mind. And here's one MUST ASK if you ask nothing else that every kid should ask and demand an answer to: What is the worst case scenario of puberty enders? What is the worst case scenario of surgeries? Be courteous of course and be unafraid to tell the doctor you need to know these things and you’re there with him/her, because they are the people who can tell you. Insisting on answers is a good habit to get into. I’ve recorded Doctor explanations, just to remember, not to sue: to think clearly about your options. If they’ve got integrity, it should be okay. If the refuse, well, that’s INFORMATION about them you may want to consider the why of. Take notes, too, and write down answers. I can’t remember everything the oral surgeon told me in detail the other day about the project at hand for me. I clearly THOUGHT I’d remember, but I don’t. What is the worst that can happen even if you are the best doctor in the world and do everything right? What are common bad outcomes? I just want to fully understand the risks I’m taking. :- )
One thing that has made me nuts regarding transing of children is that there are laws that have been on the books since at least the 1990s making it illegal for medical treatments that permanently disable sex organs of minors, with the exception of treatments to save the child's life (e.g., removing a cancerous organ). This came up because of cases of children who were severely disabled, the most famous was a Seattle girl known as "Pillow Angel." She couldn't talk, walk, feed herself, play or do much other than wake and sleep. Her parents wanted to keep her as much a part of family life as they could, and would bring her on all family outings.
They petitioned a court for permission to remove her breast buds, uterus and ovaries to minimize her adult height and to prevent her ever having periods. They felt keeping her small and not a fully mature female would be easier for her care givers and for her. As far as I recall, they weren't allowed to do the procedures.
These laws have just been ignored because trans.
It looks like it was (is?) called the 'Ashley Treatment' and the parents WERE allowed to do it according to Wikipedia (not a great source but has links!). There seem to be a few cases. There is a reference to the UK that a similar case here would probably have gone to court and a decision made in the best interests of the child whereas this seems to have been largely in the interests of the care givers? In the UK we have had several high profile cases about best interest child medical treatments verses care givers opposition that have been decided in court (mainly I think to do with parents wanting continuing medical treatments that will not work like life support when the child will not survive?). I think that is because here children are considered to be legally individuals separate from their parents not 'owned' by their parents as it appears in some countries (parents here legally have parental responsibility to, not rights over their children although some parents don't seem to realise that!) and the best interests of the child are separate from the best interests of the care givers? Although this seems to have been taken to extremes in Georgia (?) where there is the current case of keeping a brain dead woman on life support because she was in the early stages of pregnancy when she died and letting the foetus die with her is considered abortion? Which is crazy as a foetus is not able to survive outside the mother at that stage!
I don't think it has much to do with 'ownership' of a child but more to do with a Parent's 'guardianship' over their child. A child, who is minor, and in most cases will not have the mental capacity, understanding or experience to make important and complex decisions over their life or fully comprehend the future consequences.
In the UK, our laws give ultimate authority to the family courts to make decisions as to what is in the best interests of the child and where possible seek the views of the child, as well as the Parents and relevant specialist agencies in order to come to a final decision on the matter at hand.
I was thinking more about how some parents act over their children not really the legal interpretation. Some of them seem to view them as extensions of themselves rather than separate albeit immature and vulnerable young people. Although people like that also seem to think they can be friends with their young child instead of being the adult having to make unpopular but correct decisions for their child sometimes.
Oh, I see. Yes, I'm definitely with you on that.
An etbical analysis is at https://www.sju.edu/centers/icb/blog/is-the-ashley-treatment-ethical. Ashley 's parents have established a website at http://www.pillowangel.org/updates.htm . It seems she has been medically manipulated.
Thanks for the links!
Hmmm, do you know the specific laws? I just did a very quick search about the case and the main thing I could find is that in WA state it is illegal to sterilize a minor with developmental disabilities, and that that was the main bone of contention in the Ashley case.
Disgusting that there's been a complete lack of political will to enforce this state-based prohibition on the sterilisation of minors with autism and other neurological differences in service of trans ideology.
Trans seems to be an exception to all well established psycho-medical laws and practice.
Yes,it's very special.
If they knew it was a winning strategy (coming soon) Trump’s team knew before it was “based”
BTW I have yet to ever meet, or even see, a woman who has a prominent Adam's apple! Even the detransitioned women I've met lack them completely. This "Some women have prominent Adam's apples!" nonsense sounds just like the monumental online hugbox cope that it surely is.
Not sure if I have ever seen a woman with a pronounced Adam's Apple either! Sounds made up!
That said I did encounter a woman yesterday (new receptionist at the dentist office) with the largest hands I have ever seen on a woman. Not just long but thick and heavy, they looked like my dad's hands used to look and he worked construction for 50 years! Made me do a double take but she was definitely a woman.
'Not just long but thick and heavy, they looked like my dad's hands used to look and he worked construction for 50 years!'
Amanda, you make me chuckle so much!😂
🥇
Go scream at your father’s balls 🤣💕
Height is not determined by your chromosomes! It is a Polygenic trait (subject to the interaction of a number of genes). Some are inherited but it can be from either parent or even grandparents and previous relatives which have lain dormant in the prior generation.
Puberty blocking kids does not stop them growing tall. Take Susy Greene's kid Jacki for instance. Puberty blocked (chemically castrated) at 9 years old, actually castrated and colo-vag installed at 16 years old, but still 5' 11" !
It WILL stop muscular development, negatively effect bone density, stop the vocal cords thickening, prevent genital maturation, so the kid will have zero sexual function. It will also close the growth plates earlier than would otherwise be the case, thus mitigating the height (Left alone Jack would have probably been 6' 4") but if you're going to be tall then you're going to be tall that's it!
Also, it seems to me that most (or all) of the prominent cases of puberty blocked men still have clearly male faces and builds, even if they didn't reach their genetic potential height-wise. Take the case of Grace Hyland, for example.
Poor guy has to really coat himself in stacks of makeup.
I couldn't tell you if Grace Hyland has masculine features or not, I don't think there is a single photo/video of Grace that doesn't have a half dozen filters running on it!
Grace's height is somewhere between 5'9" and 5'10" (Dependant upon which website you believe) Grace's model agency says 5'9" and 132 Lbs (1.75m and 60Kg).
The biggest issue for me is not the way they look. Blocking them early will make most of them look like girls. Leaving aside the health issues like bone density these kids never develop any brain maturity. All well and good when you are a teen or early 20's, But they have to grow up and live in the real world but these kids never seem to. You are not going to be pretty forever, time is a bitch!
They cannot form or maintain a relationship because they are infantile in their thought processes and have no sexual desire and most likely have limited sexual function. Despite what they look like they do not seem to be able to form and maintain romantic relationships. Settled HSTS who transition as young adults (20+) don't seem to have the same issues.
When all of the effects of this treatment are acknowledged, it becomes crystal clear that it's unconscionable.
They never move like women though so the illusion only holds for a quick glance in a still photo and even then you get uncanny valley vibes from them when a second look is taken. There has been a repeat of a quiz show on TV here over the last few days and the fat trans identified male contestant is so obvious despite being plastered in make up and wearing the obligatory choker.
Their gait is slightly different because of the pelvic angle and it is more pronounced the taller you are. You wouldn't notice it in shorter people.
Interesting. Putting the topic of trans aside for a moment, human biology and the many differences in males and females and genetics is fascinating. You take it all for granted when you are just living and being.
Isn't that sad, to take away so much from a child's life and things that are so fundamental and when done, completely irreversible.
It's morally bankrupt and should be a criminal offence.
Gatekeeping! If it was down to me the gates would have armed guards.
Well I suppose it is kind of like in past times when male children were turned into castrati to sing isn't it? Or where children were sent to become priests or nuns instead of marrying and having families or even when civilisations like aztecs, incas and iron age Europeans (bog bodies) practiced human sacrifices sometimes of children. They seem to have always been seen as expendable and now they are sacrificed for social media and celebrity popularity (the latter people like Emma Bunton, Melanie Brown and Sade) instead.
Sorry, I didn't understand the Emma, Melanie and Sade connection?
Former Spice Girls singer EB is said to have transed one of her sons, the singer Sade's daughter says she is a man but is probably a lesbian (think she has a female partner) and in the last few days EB's former Spice Girls colleague MB AKA Melanie B or Mel B has announced that her daughter by Eddie Murphy is a boy so possibly also a lesbian. So called celebrities jumping on the bandwagon as always. 🙄
He might still have been tall though, he has I think three brothers, it would be interesting (as in idle curiosity) to know how tall they, his father and both grandfathers are/were. I think there is also a measument that can be done when toddlers that can estimate adult height. Would be interesting if that formed part of his baby records.
💖
I’m a 5’11” terf 🙄
And I hate being considered fucking masculine just bc I’m tall. I’m a natural born woman
My daughter is a beautiful and striking 5' 11' and I taught her at a very early age to own it!(during teasing at school era). She didn't need to 'fit in' to anything. I told her there would be a time in the future when people wished they had her beautiful, stylish height, if they didn't already. My words came true! Past school mates compliment her all the time on her height and she loves her height. More so as she works within the fashion industry.
She was and is her own unique person. She has presence when she walks into a room and commands attention just by 'being'. So people never forget her, which has worked very much in her favour.
The key is to drown out the noise, because that's all it is noise, and just live 'your best life' simply being you. Irrespective of whether you do or you don't look masculine or feminine. It doesn't matter. It's actually all irrelevant.
What is relevant is that you enjoy and embrace simply 'being' you and are not affected by the mere perceptions of others about you. That's where the real power lies.
Medical doctors who prescribe puberty enders, hormones, and surgery bear the lion's share of blame. Even people with above average intelligence feel ignorant in a doctor's presence: they are the ones who went to med school, after all, they know way more than we do. And, people give in to the avalanche of, "It's fine, do it, I did and look at me[--don't look TOO hard, but], yeah!" I imagine that at age 13-14-15+, a dysphoria patient is not going to challenge a doctor on common sense issues like, What about scarring? What if I don't heal right? How specifically will evacuating my bladder and my bowels be affected? What if I do decide to have children one day, do fake breasts work for nursing again? (Kids/teens mostly have no understanding of mammary glands, or any bodily function from the inside--that’s what makes them such easy marks.) Can my body gestate a baby after puberty enders have caused my uterus to shrivel up and maybe been removed? (”I thought the baby was in the stomach.”) Can I get a new womb? They’re starting to make them for gay men couples, right? It was on Tik Tok, gay men who had a baby. (I hate for kids to have to be informed about the sickoes out there, like the 100% female ‘transmen’ who gave birth with their always-were-always-will-be-female bodies, having gotten pregnant in an--apparent to everyone else--HETEROSEXUAL relationship, which after one or both parties decides to identify as the opposite sex means they are still in a heterosexual relationship while play-acting in Genders R Us world as two gay men.) (Apologies to all gay men who’ve simultaneously spun on their heels at the very idea, just as women eschew with vomit coming up the idea of a man posing as a lesbian of any kind.) These are not dumb questions for a teenager to ask a doctor, so DO IT, teens, Ask the REAL questions you have in your mind. And here's one MUST ASK if you ask nothing else that every kid should ask and demand an answer to: What is the worst case scenario of puberty enders? What is the worst case scenario of surgeries? Be courteous of course and be unafraid to tell the doctor you need to know these things and you’re there with him/her, because they are the people who can tell you. Insisting on answers is a good habit to get into. I’ve recorded Doctor explanations, just to remember, not to sue: to think clearly about your options. If they’ve got integrity, it should be okay. If the refuse, well, that’s INFORMATION about them you may want to consider the why of. Take notes, too, and write down answers. I can’t remember everything the oral surgeon told me in detail the other day about the project at hand for me. I clearly THOUGHT I’d remember, but I don’t. What is the worst that can happen even if you are the best doctor in the world and do everything right? What are common bad outcomes? I just want to fully understand the risks I’m taking. :- )
Hi karen. Can you do a piece about the east German athletes from the 70's and the problems they had from the testosterone they were given please?
Yes, it'd be quite salient.