It seems that Joyce has evolved re her use of pronouns for these male opp. sex impersonators. From the full interview I gathered that she is not in favor of using she for men who impersonate women. I have never used 'she' for these male opp sex impersonators & have always believed that doing so was 'the camel's nose under the tent' & that eventually the camel would be inside the tent pissing on women and here we are. I remember hearing Joyce say long ago that the 'transgender identity' movement was in large part a linguistic movement & thus we should not use their language. Perhaps I misunderstood what she meant or she was speaking generally but referring to a specific context re the use of pronouns.
I did not know about Joyce's Twitter statement about policing pronouns. At any rate, I've always believed that calling a man 'she' in the interest of politeness was quite impolite & disrespectful to women. I've always thought that men's paraphilias are not women's or society's burden or problem to solve, Moreover, I knew that these men were quite aggressive & domineering & that they would further appropriate & colonize 'woman' if not contained.
Well, I have to say that was not one of Joyce's better moments. I understand what she is saying about free speech but we all have the freedom to speak as well & to call out those who are calling a man a woman. The woman (Britany?) who responded to Joyce's remark was quite on point. Thank you for posting the link.
I remember that... that was a GREAT video by Britany! I love that she pointed out Helen was sitting next to a woman who LOST HER JOB for using the correct pronoun for a man.
Helen works at "Sex Matters". LOL! Sex doesn't matter to Helen because she believes that gender and peen feelz and 'fake kindness' matters more than truth. Women, if they exist at all as a sex class or legal category don't matter either. Collateral damage - oh well.
and leading people astray, misleading. Most of all they are joining in on the misleading of children who are besieged by this filthy ideology. They are taking part in the corruption and gaslighting of young impressionable minds.
it's the right word and everyone knows what it means. You call a man an 'AGP' only those already aware of what's happening with this ideology get it. Also the Autogynephille word doesn't come with warning bells attached in the way the word pervert does. AGP is a psychiatric industry euphemism - a word to sanitise and confuse. I'm trying to remember which magician in a top hat came up with it.
"AGP" probably sounds akin to an abbreviation for a railway station or suburb to many of the uninitiated - and that's putting aside the fact that the men in question expend so much energy staunchly denying it's very existence!
Blanchard was not a psychiatrist but was actually a Clinical Psychologist for the Ontario Correctional Institute before becoming a researcher and sexologist
I don't know where they stand re the 'trutrans' nonsense but imo a man's motivation or belief does not matter. If men are allowed to dress like women they should never legally, socially or politically be considered the opp sex--that's the problem for women, LGBs, & for society.
I have actually unsubscribed from Youtube channels for just insisting on calling men she. It infuriates me when anyone does that, no matter whether it is a man or a woman doing it.
Listening to that excerpt from Joyce, she is lamenting, not advocating, the fact that being ‘nice’ in playing along with someone’s fantasy for some 4 years has led to the outcome presently where the fantasy is asserted / considered as true. She is not condoning that outcome. She is advocating that being nice or kind in this context is not in the best interests of women.
You said it perfectly, Martin! Helen Joyce is our ally, a valuable, articulate voice. Anyone who thinks she's the enemy isn’t really listening. She's often on YouTube, check her out, she's inspirational! She's Scottish, and often is interviewed for TV in the UK. You won't hear her referring to TIM's in female terms, pronouns or otherwise. Divisiveness will only hurt us - let's support each other.
I'll see if I can find the tweet in question. She also said recently that troonery should be accommodated as one would accommodate Orthodox Jews or Muslims.
I don't believe putting the mantle of a religious belief around a paraphilia would be a good idea in the U.S. I have not thought it through but I should think there could be accommodation issues that would conflict w/ women's rights were that the case unless there was a strict line drawn to legally protect women's sex-class & attendant rights.
I think that it would likely also conflict with the rights of the disabled. Society has, entirely appropriately, created third spaces in order to accommodate the disabled and I believe that doing the same for those who wish to flaunt their paraphilia publicly would be a mistake of immense proportions. It would, among other things, imply that these men simply have no agency or control over their own behaviour - which is obviously not the case.
I'm listening very carefully and I don't like what I'm hearing. I was particularly irritated by her statement that we should accomodate troonery as we would Orthodox Judaism or Islam.
Yes HJs divisive comments calling women who insist on correct sex pronouns (sex matters) to F off did hurt us, As did her Jump on the mat for Boghosian moment where she made the point that there were too many totalitarians in terfdom, Very divisive and harmful indeed.
She’s Irish, BTW. She isn’t an ally of women. There are several like her, grifting off the situation that she promoted by calling men “she” and chastising women who wouldn’t. Another garbage fire with a graduate degree, which confers an outsized ability to harm others and platform one’s ideas in mass media, versus typical women. Unfortunately, actual, real feminism isn’t promoted by her activities. Perhaps by your use of the pronoun “us” you mean those interested in protecting children from the gender butchers? I don’t see how TruTrans promoters help protect children, either. 🤔
I think Karen is right. HJ did tell us to fuck off and stop correcting those that called men she. To fuck off. I was offended most heartily. This is a hard fight and these academics have being placating these assholes from the beginning. They got us here regardless of how they are NOW making their money. I can just see her chuckling along with the men in dresses and feeling so special. I, for one, would like to hear her acknowledge what she said, and apologize to all us lowly females that say "He" over and over again.
Sorry, my error. I see you're laughing at my error, too bad. I’m not your enemy; pretty sure that we're on the same general side of things - pro women's rights; identity by sex, not gender; stop the “trans” craziness. HJ is out there, being visible, and has peaked a boatload of women, and men. I hate seeing a talk devoted to dissing her based on differences in her approach. Discussing differences is fine. Running a headline - “HJ is a Liar” in big letters - is provoking and not a bit productive. And the story continues in that tone. Don’t we want to be productive?
plus didnt helen also say "oh let people have freedom of speech" or something yet seems to conveniently forget that its also freedom of speech for a woman to speak against the usage of preferred pronouns
Productive of what? For whom? She’s promoting her own ideas, as she was when chastising us TERFs and talking down to those of us who refuse to use wrong-sex pronouns. There’s nothing wrong with that title. Karen keeps a hard line on this sort of “be kind” bullshit, probably in no small part because she’s a New Yorker and confrontational is respectful in an urban context such as NYC. The mindfuckery of twans proceeds from the white collar trash layer of society and is being imposed upon the rest of us. I don’t appreciate HJ’s condescension and manipulation, nor the fact that she’s now associated with Genspect, the grooming organization attempting to preserve this twans lunacy.
Is telling pronoun holdtheliners to fuck off from a big platform provoking?
It is. So is denouncing terfs as totalitarians for sticking firmly to correct pronouns. This is not Saint Helen Joyce here. She was commissioned to write her book by the economist. She is establishment. Noblesse oblige and so screeching f off to women fighting T at the coalface for their hold the line (important) policy is plain tacky. And plain wrong.
And by doing this she was undermining all the women who make a stand with LWS. I can only imagine the feeding frenzies they'd been getting into over their drinks at Genspect conf. That big laugh from the others on the panel didn't emerge out of nowhere.
Joyce is Irish, not Scottish. Regardless of her being articulate, she isn't the Oracle of Delphi and is just as likely as the next person to be talking utter rubbish. And on this matter, she is entirely wrong.
The sign of a healthy movement is open disagreement. If everyone's singing from the same hymnsheet, you have a cult. I don't want to be in anyone's cult.
why are you trying so hard to make excuses for her telling those insisting on the importance of using correct pronouns to eff off. Vitriol from the lips of H J but no retaliation from those she is targeting, is that it. She's a journalist attacking use of accurate language!! fcs!
It is her position to use sex-based pronouns. She would not tell herself to fuck-off. Her tirade was against the very notion of personal pronouns, its idiocy. She was exasperated by the ridiculousness and the haranguing and awkwardly lumped opposition to using gender cosplaying pronouns as also being those who 'police'. It is the TRAs that police while the GCs just want to speak the truth, which is not policing.
At the same time she doesn't want some GCs to treat as absolute enemies those other GCs that for some annoying reason, on occasion, still adopt the be-nice-to-a-fragile-Trans position and use the wrong pronoun. Ultimately the parties want the same outcome - eradication of the Transgender incoherence. Thats what her main point was - keep the dialogue going to work together for an end, rather than decamping to opposite corners.
She has a sharp analytical mind evidenced from her book, articles and interviews. She has a PhD in advanced mathematics. Some people are attempting to disparage her using 'journalist' as a pejorative. Just examine her content. All of it. She is quality.
She jumped on a mat to say too many terfs are totalitarians. She's not doing well on the ally front. You're framing ally-ship as a one way street. So we must show we are allies to her and she can trash us all she likes using her big platforms, eh? No. No no no! I'll hit below the belt now as you are so insistent on her being 'quality,' such a snob word, lol. HJ is such 'quality' that she doesn't instantly walk off a panel in disgust when a drunk fetishist is showing his testicles to the audience? Rather more concerned with stupid and rigid etiquette 'I said I'd take part and as a woman of my word I did'. Polite society has a lot to answer for. A graphic example of putting her received ideas about manners before integrity and doing the right thing.
A journalist worthy of the name should always prioritise accurate reporting. Correct reporting includes calling a he a he and not a she.
Hi Karen, could you please do a discussion about the “famous” trans identified men and women like, Lavern Cox, Ellen Page, Flame Monroe, and Hunter Schaffer to name a few?
The quote in context shown in this thread where she confirms that *she herself does not use one’s preferred (wrong) pronouns*, but … doesn’t immediately stop talking to someone else who does, like Stella.
Hear, hear to this insightful comment from the above thread,
“I broadly agree & have great respect for both. But I feel uncomfortable hearing the "F*** off", not because of the sentiments, but because it's the sort of abrasive language I associate with the 'other side'. I've read 'Trans' & associate HJ with articulate and persuasive words.”
Some quotes below from this wonderfully lucid articulate piece by Helen Joyce
“As I say in my book, gender self-identification “is a misnomer. It is actually about requiring others to identify you as a member of the sex you proclaim.”
— Helen Joyce
“A woman really should not have to cope with being called genocidal because she says men should stop identifying into women’s spaces, and doctors should stop sterilising children. And making these arguments is so much harder when you’re forced to use female words like “girl”, “woman” and “she” for trans-identified boys and men, and male words for trans-identified girls and women.”
— Helen Joyce
On the problems caused by pushing sex-denialism:
“…The employees in human resources who impose preferred pronouns and gender-neutral toilets across their organisations, in the name of “inclusivity”
I’d say HJ was caught up in the circumstance, flanked by major players Maya Forstater and fellow GC soldier Irishwoman Stella O’Malley and blurted out an unguarded exasperation. **Her main point prefixed by her contentious comment** was that she, as a person who does not use wrong pronouns, does not want to stop talking to those that occasionally do (really referring to Stella O’Malley in that clip) use them (wrongly in her mind), but otherwise agree with every position HJ takes opposing the Trans agenda; for the sake of hopefully persuading those who do use wrong pronouns to at some point see the light and refrain from doing so.
( The Irish seem to have a reputation for casual fruity speech in heated moments, though she did say ‘fuck off’ rather than ‘feck off’, perhaps because she knew the audience was international?
;-) )
I’d say for certain that, even though she referred to GCs as transgressors of courtesy, her primary target for that shot was TRAs insisting on us ‘the Sane’ using wrong pronouns - she herself doesn’t use wrong pronouns, not because she doesn’t care about discourtesy, but because they don’t reflect reality - given the context of all she has said in her book, articles and interviews. For some to state here that HJ “isn’t an ally of women” doesn’t make any sense at all given her grand collection of written works and spoken words.
For Karen Davis and others to vilify HJ over this tiny few second out-of-context commentary, juxtaposed against ALL her other works and commentary, is not in the interests of persuading political and cultural fantasy-supporting elites to get back onto the road of sanity. She is a formidable interlocutor for the side of Common Sense.
I don't do compulsory admiration. Why? Because someone wrote a book on transgenderism and got handsomely paid for it? Shouting fvck off at women, women who bought her bloody book and threw money at sex matters, (another NGO charity job for the gals scam) from a large platform with her also-paid cronies laughing on! Hey, you tell people to f off don't be surprised when they do. I don't buy this 'good for the movement' solidarity bs. It comes from warped leftist culture. Telling the truth is what matters and calling out these so called allies when they take the piss. HJ is the one doing the undermining. And her mate Forstater showing her unwholesome colours recently too by pushing the foundational KPSS out of the picture. A proper couple of establishment ladder climbers so they are.
We all have free speech here fortunately. I don't have a problem w/ people who are working against the 'transgender' nonsense getting compensated for their work. And I think the important thing is that we are all about protecting women's & LGBs' sex-based rights & the right of minors to grow up w/o being hormonally or surgically mutilated in the name of an insane ideology.
There are differences on either side of the pond as to how to deal w/ the 'trans' lunacy & the laws, the health systems & the gov't structures are different in the U.S. & on TERF Island & those differences affect the approach to this issue in the respective countries. But essentially we all know a man can't become a woman; that humans can't change sex; and that women are the losers when society pretends otherwise.
I'm here for minors who are indoctrinated and coerced into 'transing' by these poison ideologues and for their freedom to same sex attraction. I'm here for lesbians and for myself, a woman. I am not here for grown gay men and their rights. They have won their rights so please don't assume the LGB teaming you speak of speaks for me. It doesn't. In fact adult gay men who are fighting transgenderism are almost entirely silent on the abuses of surrogacy (gay men child trafficking and exploiting women's reproduction capabilities) .
The point I make is that women's & LGBs' rights are both based on sex. As to the gay men & rent- a -womb surrogacy I agree it commodifies women's bodies.
The almost universal silence from Gay men regarding surrogacy, and their increasingly organised industrialisation of women for the supply of children, really highlights how women are not seeing GM as the enemies they're becoming. This trade specialising in the market for gay men buying babies shows they are undermining women's rights and the rights of children. The mother erasure even going so far as naming the man as mother on the birth cert. (David Furnish - eg) This is Gay Gilead and shows the LGB is false teaming. Men's sex based rights and those of women are entirely different. The G is the right to a desire and to act upon that desire with man on man sex. The sex based rights of women are based on the needs of women and children to be safe. As lesbians are women then this includes the L but should not, and should never have included the G, imv. We see what a defence of men's sexual desires has come to - rightly giving an inch (freedom of same sex man on man coupling) only for them to take a mile eroding all boundaries of decency at the expense of women and children.
You make some good points. There was a time when lesbians felt the need to focus on their specific needs and that was the 'Get the 'L' Out' movement. The joining the L w/ the G was around the issue of same-sex attraction and attendant rights re that. But women's bodies regarding reproduction being treated as a commodity is a problem.
apologetics. If you burst out something nasty and downright bullying in an off guard moment then apologise for it. Don't double down and go on to say there are too many totalitarian terfs - this from another big platform,. I don't like the woman. She's full of rage and as we see that rage is not just for the injustices of the T - it is rage against women busting a gut at the grass roots to defeat the T and having no pay or glory for it btw unlike her, and then dishing out her abuse. She was actually declaring class war with her outburst. them and us - leaving a nasty taste in the mouths of anyone with half a clue
Please explain how this statement was 'productive'. Click on the video to see the clip from the Genspect Conference in which Helen Joyce tells women to fuck off.
this 'is it productive' 'is it helpful' wording. It's the same wording Hayton uses. It's top down pious churchy style moralising. Productive to whom exactly? Helpful to whom exactly? When I saw Joyce, a very controlled and senior professional woman shouting f off from a conference platform with her platform cronies and SOM laughing along I was 100% certain it was no unguarded moment but a deliberate dividing lead by her and probably planned. She is nothing if not controlled and you don't survive a long prof. career with an internationally renowned establishment journal by having outbursts, It was a 'we are up here and you are down there' moment. Probably news of big secure funding had recently been confirmed and it was her declaration of loyalty £££££££ to the Genspect cult. It put me in mind of the two legs good piggy scene in Orwell's Animal Farm.
She is heard by the media class - she is the media class but she does nothing for most people. A boring style, school marmish, clear but unappealing, managerial style not popular with most people. A switch off for many outside of the genderwars bubble, Whereas KJK really reaches people. She wins people over. Helen Joyce is like the school swat who would tell you to hush in class and go telling tales to teacher, The middles and the compromisers can big her up all they like, she's one of their set and speaks their lingo. She bores me. And her body language is tense and a hard watch. I'm getting fed up of the fawning. She's just establishment as usual - enough to send anyone to sleep.
Nobody thinks a woman calling a man "she" really means it. What she needs to admit to is that she and her friends were/are doing it out of fear of male violence or institutional punishment. Just be honest about it - we all know that women are often put in these impossible situations and can understand when women prioritize being able to continue breathing and/or continue having a job make the lying choice under duress.
It is not "important" to be polite to us because we will not respond with physical violence. She is well aware that is NOT true about men in womanface. I will admit freely that I would advise another woman to call a man "she" if it means she can escape a violent assault by him by doing so. If I want to deal with a physically attacking man, that is my business, but I can't advise other women that they should do the same.
It seems that Joyce has evolved re her use of pronouns for these male opp. sex impersonators. From the full interview I gathered that she is not in favor of using she for men who impersonate women. I have never used 'she' for these male opp sex impersonators & have always believed that doing so was 'the camel's nose under the tent' & that eventually the camel would be inside the tent pissing on women and here we are. I remember hearing Joyce say long ago that the 'transgender identity' movement was in large part a linguistic movement & thus we should not use their language. Perhaps I misunderstood what she meant or she was speaking generally but referring to a specific context re the use of pronouns.
I did not know about Joyce's Twitter statement about policing pronouns. At any rate, I've always believed that calling a man 'she' in the interest of politeness was quite impolite & disrespectful to women. I've always thought that men's paraphilias are not women's or society's burden or problem to solve, Moreover, I knew that these men were quite aggressive & domineering & that they would further appropriate & colonize 'woman' if not contained.
Check this out. https://twitter.com/ASTFxx/status/1723424897282576508?t=Ln8jO70G8R6Ks535nNSFnQ&s=19
Well, I have to say that was not one of Joyce's better moments. I understand what she is saying about free speech but we all have the freedom to speak as well & to call out those who are calling a man a woman. The woman (Britany?) who responded to Joyce's remark was quite on point. Thank you for posting the link.
Joyce is free to lie, other women are free to call her out on the lie.
I remember that... that was a GREAT video by Britany! I love that she pointed out Helen was sitting next to a woman who LOST HER JOB for using the correct pronoun for a man.
Joyce calls herself a journalist. Accurate reporting is a basic tenet of the fourth estate - calling a he a she is not accurate reporting.
Helen works at "Sex Matters". LOL! Sex doesn't matter to Helen because she believes that gender and peen feelz and 'fake kindness' matters more than truth. Women, if they exist at all as a sex class or legal category don't matter either. Collateral damage - oh well.
To quote Magdalen:
"I'd Rather Be Rude Than a Fucking Liar"
Damn right.
Women who use the pronouns are cooperating with a project that downgrades Woman to a figment of perverts' imagination.
and leading people astray, misleading. Most of all they are joining in on the misleading of children who are besieged by this filthy ideology. They are taking part in the corruption and gaslighting of young impressionable minds.
Figment of perverts' imagination. I like those words. Thank you 👍
Yes! The word "pervert" truly does deserve a renaissance. Use it whenever and wherever applicable, is my suggestion.
it's the right word and everyone knows what it means. You call a man an 'AGP' only those already aware of what's happening with this ideology get it. Also the Autogynephille word doesn't come with warning bells attached in the way the word pervert does. AGP is a psychiatric industry euphemism - a word to sanitise and confuse. I'm trying to remember which magician in a top hat came up with it.
That's all exactly right.
"AGP" probably sounds akin to an abbreviation for a railway station or suburb to many of the uninitiated - and that's putting aside the fact that the men in question expend so much energy staunchly denying it's very existence!
The man who coined the term AGP is Ray Blanchard. He's not a psychiatrist, he's a researcher and a 'sexologist.'
Blanchard was not a psychiatrist but was actually a Clinical Psychologist for the Ontario Correctional Institute before becoming a researcher and sexologist
Are Genspect still on the 'trutrans' (copyright) narrative? Is that what this is about? As well as a hefty dose of misogyny and telling off 😂😂😂
I'm sure they are.
I don't know where they stand re the 'trutrans' nonsense but imo a man's motivation or belief does not matter. If men are allowed to dress like women they should never legally, socially or politically be considered the opp sex--that's the problem for women, LGBs, & for society.
I have actually unsubscribed from Youtube channels for just insisting on calling men she. It infuriates me when anyone does that, no matter whether it is a man or a woman doing it.
Yup. "The Bro Code"
Eh?? I think you’ve misunderstood.
Listening to that excerpt from Joyce, she is lamenting, not advocating, the fact that being ‘nice’ in playing along with someone’s fantasy for some 4 years has led to the outcome presently where the fantasy is asserted / considered as true. She is not condoning that outcome. She is advocating that being nice or kind in this context is not in the best interests of women.
She told 'pronoun police' women to fuck off.
You said it perfectly, Martin! Helen Joyce is our ally, a valuable, articulate voice. Anyone who thinks she's the enemy isn’t really listening. She's often on YouTube, check her out, she's inspirational! She's Scottish, and often is interviewed for TV in the UK. You won't hear her referring to TIM's in female terms, pronouns or otherwise. Divisiveness will only hurt us - let's support each other.
I'll see if I can find the tweet in question. She also said recently that troonery should be accommodated as one would accommodate Orthodox Jews or Muslims.
I don't believe putting the mantle of a religious belief around a paraphilia would be a good idea in the U.S. I have not thought it through but I should think there could be accommodation issues that would conflict w/ women's rights were that the case unless there was a strict line drawn to legally protect women's sex-class & attendant rights.
I think that it would likely also conflict with the rights of the disabled. Society has, entirely appropriately, created third spaces in order to accommodate the disabled and I believe that doing the same for those who wish to flaunt their paraphilia publicly would be a mistake of immense proportions. It would, among other things, imply that these men simply have no agency or control over their own behaviour - which is obviously not the case.
Good point.
yes
I'm listening very carefully and I don't like what I'm hearing. I was particularly irritated by her statement that we should accomodate troonery as we would Orthodox Judaism or Islam.
Yes HJs divisive comments calling women who insist on correct sex pronouns (sex matters) to F off did hurt us, As did her Jump on the mat for Boghosian moment where she made the point that there were too many totalitarians in terfdom, Very divisive and harmful indeed.
She’s Irish, BTW. She isn’t an ally of women. There are several like her, grifting off the situation that she promoted by calling men “she” and chastising women who wouldn’t. Another garbage fire with a graduate degree, which confers an outsized ability to harm others and platform one’s ideas in mass media, versus typical women. Unfortunately, actual, real feminism isn’t promoted by her activities. Perhaps by your use of the pronoun “us” you mean those interested in protecting children from the gender butchers? I don’t see how TruTrans promoters help protect children, either. 🤔
Well put 🙌🙌🙌
I think Karen is right. HJ did tell us to fuck off and stop correcting those that called men she. To fuck off. I was offended most heartily. This is a hard fight and these academics have being placating these assholes from the beginning. They got us here regardless of how they are NOW making their money. I can just see her chuckling along with the men in dresses and feeling so special. I, for one, would like to hear her acknowledge what she said, and apologize to all us lowly females that say "He" over and over again.
💯👏🏼
She's not Scottish 😂😂😂
Sorry, my error. I see you're laughing at my error, too bad. I’m not your enemy; pretty sure that we're on the same general side of things - pro women's rights; identity by sex, not gender; stop the “trans” craziness. HJ is out there, being visible, and has peaked a boatload of women, and men. I hate seeing a talk devoted to dissing her based on differences in her approach. Discussing differences is fine. Running a headline - “HJ is a Liar” in big letters - is provoking and not a bit productive. And the story continues in that tone. Don’t we want to be productive?
Did you think I was here to be polite?
Telling women who won't allow others to call men 'she' to fuck off isn't productive and yet Helen Joyce did just that.
plus didnt helen also say "oh let people have freedom of speech" or something yet seems to conveniently forget that its also freedom of speech for a woman to speak against the usage of preferred pronouns
Exactly.
Productive of what? For whom? She’s promoting her own ideas, as she was when chastising us TERFs and talking down to those of us who refuse to use wrong-sex pronouns. There’s nothing wrong with that title. Karen keeps a hard line on this sort of “be kind” bullshit, probably in no small part because she’s a New Yorker and confrontational is respectful in an urban context such as NYC. The mindfuckery of twans proceeds from the white collar trash layer of society and is being imposed upon the rest of us. I don’t appreciate HJ’s condescension and manipulation, nor the fact that she’s now associated with Genspect, the grooming organization attempting to preserve this twans lunacy.
Is telling pronoun holdtheliners to fuck off from a big platform provoking?
It is. So is denouncing terfs as totalitarians for sticking firmly to correct pronouns. This is not Saint Helen Joyce here. She was commissioned to write her book by the economist. She is establishment. Noblesse oblige and so screeching f off to women fighting T at the coalface for their hold the line (important) policy is plain tacky. And plain wrong.
It was quite clearly an attempt at an "oblique" dig at Kellie-Jay Keen if you ask me...
And by doing this she was undermining all the women who make a stand with LWS. I can only imagine the feeding frenzies they'd been getting into over their drinks at Genspect conf. That big laugh from the others on the panel didn't emerge out of nowhere.
FYI-Joyce is Irish
She’s Irish lol….lives in England, definitely not Scottish.
Joyce is Irish, not Scottish. Regardless of her being articulate, she isn't the Oracle of Delphi and is just as likely as the next person to be talking utter rubbish. And on this matter, she is entirely wrong.
The sign of a healthy movement is open disagreement. If everyone's singing from the same hymnsheet, you have a cult. I don't want to be in anyone's cult.
Have you seen this? https://twitter.com/ASTFxx/status/1723424897282576508?t=Ln8jO70G8R6Ks535nNSFnQ&s=19
why are you trying so hard to make excuses for her telling those insisting on the importance of using correct pronouns to eff off. Vitriol from the lips of H J but no retaliation from those she is targeting, is that it. She's a journalist attacking use of accurate language!! fcs!
It is her position to use sex-based pronouns. She would not tell herself to fuck-off. Her tirade was against the very notion of personal pronouns, its idiocy. She was exasperated by the ridiculousness and the haranguing and awkwardly lumped opposition to using gender cosplaying pronouns as also being those who 'police'. It is the TRAs that police while the GCs just want to speak the truth, which is not policing.
At the same time she doesn't want some GCs to treat as absolute enemies those other GCs that for some annoying reason, on occasion, still adopt the be-nice-to-a-fragile-Trans position and use the wrong pronoun. Ultimately the parties want the same outcome - eradication of the Transgender incoherence. Thats what her main point was - keep the dialogue going to work together for an end, rather than decamping to opposite corners.
She has a sharp analytical mind evidenced from her book, articles and interviews. She has a PhD in advanced mathematics. Some people are attempting to disparage her using 'journalist' as a pejorative. Just examine her content. All of it. She is quality.
She jumped on a mat to say too many terfs are totalitarians. She's not doing well on the ally front. You're framing ally-ship as a one way street. So we must show we are allies to her and she can trash us all she likes using her big platforms, eh? No. No no no! I'll hit below the belt now as you are so insistent on her being 'quality,' such a snob word, lol. HJ is such 'quality' that she doesn't instantly walk off a panel in disgust when a drunk fetishist is showing his testicles to the audience? Rather more concerned with stupid and rigid etiquette 'I said I'd take part and as a woman of my word I did'. Polite society has a lot to answer for. A graphic example of putting her received ideas about manners before integrity and doing the right thing.
A journalist worthy of the name should always prioritise accurate reporting. Correct reporting includes calling a he a he and not a she.
Hi Karen, could you please do a discussion about the “famous” trans identified men and women like, Lavern Cox, Ellen Page, Flame Monroe, and Hunter Schaffer to name a few?
i cant stand miss ellen page
Neither can Ellen Page which is why she mutilated herself.
I feel disdain for the women who 'trans' themselves though at times I think they are to be more pitied than censured.
Love, love, love Karen pointing out the obvious! We need more Karens like this in the world 👍
Yes, we do.
Spot on!
This vitriol at Helen Joyce is misplaced and completely out of order.
The quote taken out of context:
https://youtu.be/PngSd2Yrt2g?si=mTThYuE1WIw6DcX_
The quote in context shown in this thread where she confirms that *she herself does not use one’s preferred (wrong) pronouns*, but … doesn’t immediately stop talking to someone else who does, like Stella.
https://x.com/jebadoo2/status/1667834480382418945?s=46
Hear, hear to this insightful comment from the above thread,
“I broadly agree & have great respect for both. But I feel uncomfortable hearing the "F*** off", not because of the sentiments, but because it's the sort of abrasive language I associate with the 'other side'. I've read 'Trans' & associate HJ with articulate and persuasive words.”
Some quotes below from this wonderfully lucid articulate piece by Helen Joyce
https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-8/ :
“As I say in my book, gender self-identification “is a misnomer. It is actually about requiring others to identify you as a member of the sex you proclaim.”
— Helen Joyce
“A woman really should not have to cope with being called genocidal because she says men should stop identifying into women’s spaces, and doctors should stop sterilising children. And making these arguments is so much harder when you’re forced to use female words like “girl”, “woman” and “she” for trans-identified boys and men, and male words for trans-identified girls and women.”
— Helen Joyce
On the problems caused by pushing sex-denialism:
“…The employees in human resources who impose preferred pronouns and gender-neutral toilets across their organisations, in the name of “inclusivity”
— Helen Joyce
Yes, words CAN cut.
I’d say HJ was caught up in the circumstance, flanked by major players Maya Forstater and fellow GC soldier Irishwoman Stella O’Malley and blurted out an unguarded exasperation. **Her main point prefixed by her contentious comment** was that she, as a person who does not use wrong pronouns, does not want to stop talking to those that occasionally do (really referring to Stella O’Malley in that clip) use them (wrongly in her mind), but otherwise agree with every position HJ takes opposing the Trans agenda; for the sake of hopefully persuading those who do use wrong pronouns to at some point see the light and refrain from doing so.
( The Irish seem to have a reputation for casual fruity speech in heated moments, though she did say ‘fuck off’ rather than ‘feck off’, perhaps because she knew the audience was international?
;-) )
I’d say for certain that, even though she referred to GCs as transgressors of courtesy, her primary target for that shot was TRAs insisting on us ‘the Sane’ using wrong pronouns - she herself doesn’t use wrong pronouns, not because she doesn’t care about discourtesy, but because they don’t reflect reality - given the context of all she has said in her book, articles and interviews. For some to state here that HJ “isn’t an ally of women” doesn’t make any sense at all given her grand collection of written works and spoken words.
For Karen Davis and others to vilify HJ over this tiny few second out-of-context commentary, juxtaposed against ALL her other works and commentary, is not in the interests of persuading political and cultural fantasy-supporting elites to get back onto the road of sanity. She is a formidable interlocutor for the side of Common Sense.
Yeah. Telling women to fuck off uf they won't tolerate the use of feminine pronouns for men is courteous. Are you serious? Here's the clip of he speaking at the Genspect Conference. https://twitter.com/ASTFxx/status/1723424897282576508?t=Ln8jO70G8R6Ks535nNSFnQ&s=19
I may have to address this lengthy comment with its own video.
I don't do compulsory admiration. Why? Because someone wrote a book on transgenderism and got handsomely paid for it? Shouting fvck off at women, women who bought her bloody book and threw money at sex matters, (another NGO charity job for the gals scam) from a large platform with her also-paid cronies laughing on! Hey, you tell people to f off don't be surprised when they do. I don't buy this 'good for the movement' solidarity bs. It comes from warped leftist culture. Telling the truth is what matters and calling out these so called allies when they take the piss. HJ is the one doing the undermining. And her mate Forstater showing her unwholesome colours recently too by pushing the foundational KPSS out of the picture. A proper couple of establishment ladder climbers so they are.
💯👏🏼 Well said!
We all have free speech here fortunately. I don't have a problem w/ people who are working against the 'transgender' nonsense getting compensated for their work. And I think the important thing is that we are all about protecting women's & LGBs' sex-based rights & the right of minors to grow up w/o being hormonally or surgically mutilated in the name of an insane ideology.
There are differences on either side of the pond as to how to deal w/ the 'trans' lunacy & the laws, the health systems & the gov't structures are different in the U.S. & on TERF Island & those differences affect the approach to this issue in the respective countries. But essentially we all know a man can't become a woman; that humans can't change sex; and that women are the losers when society pretends otherwise.
I'm here for minors who are indoctrinated and coerced into 'transing' by these poison ideologues and for their freedom to same sex attraction. I'm here for lesbians and for myself, a woman. I am not here for grown gay men and their rights. They have won their rights so please don't assume the LGB teaming you speak of speaks for me. It doesn't. In fact adult gay men who are fighting transgenderism are almost entirely silent on the abuses of surrogacy (gay men child trafficking and exploiting women's reproduction capabilities) .
The point I make is that women's & LGBs' rights are both based on sex. As to the gay men & rent- a -womb surrogacy I agree it commodifies women's bodies.
So Fasrus
4 mins ago
The almost universal silence from Gay men regarding surrogacy, and their increasingly organised industrialisation of women for the supply of children, really highlights how women are not seeing GM as the enemies they're becoming. This trade specialising in the market for gay men buying babies shows they are undermining women's rights and the rights of children. The mother erasure even going so far as naming the man as mother on the birth cert. (David Furnish - eg) This is Gay Gilead and shows the LGB is false teaming. Men's sex based rights and those of women are entirely different. The G is the right to a desire and to act upon that desire with man on man sex. The sex based rights of women are based on the needs of women and children to be safe. As lesbians are women then this includes the L but should not, and should never have included the G, imv. We see what a defence of men's sexual desires has come to - rightly giving an inch (freedom of same sex man on man coupling) only for them to take a mile eroding all boundaries of decency at the expense of women and children.
You make some good points. There was a time when lesbians felt the need to focus on their specific needs and that was the 'Get the 'L' Out' movement. The joining the L w/ the G was around the issue of same-sex attraction and attendant rights re that. But women's bodies regarding reproduction being treated as a commodity is a problem.
apologetics. If you burst out something nasty and downright bullying in an off guard moment then apologise for it. Don't double down and go on to say there are too many totalitarian terfs - this from another big platform,. I don't like the woman. She's full of rage and as we see that rage is not just for the injustices of the T - it is rage against women busting a gut at the grass roots to defeat the T and having no pay or glory for it btw unlike her, and then dishing out her abuse. She was actually declaring class war with her outburst. them and us - leaving a nasty taste in the mouths of anyone with half a clue
💯👏🏼 Well said.
Please explain how this statement was 'productive'. Click on the video to see the clip from the Genspect Conference in which Helen Joyce tells women to fuck off.
https://twitter.com/ASTFxx/status/1723424897282576508?t=Ln8jO70G8R6Ks535nNSFnQ&s=19
this 'is it productive' 'is it helpful' wording. It's the same wording Hayton uses. It's top down pious churchy style moralising. Productive to whom exactly? Helpful to whom exactly? When I saw Joyce, a very controlled and senior professional woman shouting f off from a conference platform with her platform cronies and SOM laughing along I was 100% certain it was no unguarded moment but a deliberate dividing lead by her and probably planned. She is nothing if not controlled and you don't survive a long prof. career with an internationally renowned establishment journal by having outbursts, It was a 'we are up here and you are down there' moment. Probably news of big secure funding had recently been confirmed and it was her declaration of loyalty £££££££ to the Genspect cult. It put me in mind of the two legs good piggy scene in Orwell's Animal Farm.
And her apology is where? Stinks of elitism.
She is heard by the media class - she is the media class but she does nothing for most people. A boring style, school marmish, clear but unappealing, managerial style not popular with most people. A switch off for many outside of the genderwars bubble, Whereas KJK really reaches people. She wins people over. Helen Joyce is like the school swat who would tell you to hush in class and go telling tales to teacher, The middles and the compromisers can big her up all they like, she's one of their set and speaks their lingo. She bores me. And her body language is tense and a hard watch. I'm getting fed up of the fawning. She's just establishment as usual - enough to send anyone to sleep.
How would Helen go about explaining why good ol' Dave shouldn't use women's spaces?
'She's a very nice man,but she can't come in because she's not female'.
Yeah,that would make sense.
Nobody thinks a woman calling a man "she" really means it. What she needs to admit to is that she and her friends were/are doing it out of fear of male violence or institutional punishment. Just be honest about it - we all know that women are often put in these impossible situations and can understand when women prioritize being able to continue breathing and/or continue having a job make the lying choice under duress.
It is not "important" to be polite to us because we will not respond with physical violence. She is well aware that is NOT true about men in womanface. I will admit freely that I would advise another woman to call a man "she" if it means she can escape a violent assault by him by doing so. If I want to deal with a physically attacking man, that is my business, but I can't advise other women that they should do the same.
Some of the TRA males are unhinged and dangerous.